The Psychology of Pricing - Ruth Lundstrom

Almost more than anything, pricing is the thing that will make or break the success of your business in the long term. One person who agrees with me that there's more to pricing than just charging five quid less than the salon down the road is Ruth Lundstrom. She's got over 20 years of salon experience, and more recently she's the founder of The Freelance Suite. Here to talk more about the psychology of pricing, let's get her on the show, shall we? All on Build Your Salon. Ruth, welcome to the Build Your Salon podcast. Hi Phil, thanks for having me. You're very, very welcome. So before we jump into talking about pricing, which is one of my favourite topics, so if we geek out a little bit, we are allowed, it's my show, we can do as we damn well please. But before we do, why don't you introduce yourself, tell people a little bit about your history in the salon industry. Of course, yeah. So hi everyone, thanks for joining us. So my name's Ruth, and as Phil just said, I have been in the industry for 20 years now. And I came right through the apprenticeship. I feel like I was very lucky to go through the apprenticeship within a salon. And then after round about 10 years, I decided to take the jump into going freelance. So I went into renting a chair. Then I had my own studio space. I rented chairs out. I had a baby. I came back and I am now still on the high street in my own studio. But I am solo. And as Phil just said, I am a massive geek when it comes to pricing because I have made all the mistakes. And now I've come completely full circle and created something that helps people avoid those mistakes. Fantastic. So that is in a nutshell. Good. So just going back a little bit then, what was the nudge that you needed to, so if you've been through the apprenticeship route, presumably you were employed for the first 10 years. What was the nudge that prompted you to get into running your own business? I always say that I think I was pushed. So where I did my apprenticeship, the salon was amazing. It was a guy called Tony Marriott. He, at the time, had between 12 and 14 salons throughout the Northwest. They were called Headlines. And I did my apprenticeship in one in Southport. It's a beautiful salon. It's still there. There's like two floors to it. And then I came away from working there and joined a company that a lot of people will have heard of called Regis. And I had a horrendous experience at Regis.

It was God awful. And so I went from working in their Southport salon to, I think after three months, they asked me if I'd like to move to the Ormskirk store. And I moved to the Ormskirk store and they said, would you like to manage it? I said, I was just like, yes, anything to get out of Southport. And it was like, I feel like it was out of the frying pan into the fire. And it was really interesting actually being in Regis and being a manager because anyone who's been a manager for Regis will know. Every Monday you have to go in as a manager and you have to do all the numbers and things behind that. And I remember seeing the numbers and they would give you the figures for your salon. And I remember seeing how much the rent was and how much they were paying for Kerastase. So you got to see everything. And I remember thinking, why aren't people literally all up and leaving and opening a salon somewhere else after seeing all that? I thought it was crazy. Well, anyway, about 12 months in, there was a lot of things that were wrong with Regis and the way it was run. It was very much everyone was under pressure to hit a target. And if that target wasn't hit within a month or so, the person above you is under pressure. And they're just thinking, well, I'll get rid of that person. And, you know, the staff is like a revolving door of staff. And I always used to say, you will never build a solid, profitable business unless you have consistency within it. And Regis used to say they'd pride themselves on being a no discount salon. And yet when I came there, the discounts they were offering the girls that were there were horrendous. They were like 50% off all week. And I just thought, this is crazy. So there was, and the reason I say I got forced out was because they just said to me, run it like it's your own business. And so I did. And that's obviously not what they meant. So I busted heads a lot with the woman above me. And I'm probably very good at, if someone wants to come to me with an argument that isn't founded on any facts or there's no real solid basis to it, I will come back with an educated response and usually have evidence to back that up as well. So we didn't get on is to, you know, is an understatement. So it got to a point where I just thought I'm going to have to go freelance because I thought if I go anywhere else,

and bear in my mind, this is like 10, 11 years ago, most people will go and open a salon and run it the same as they ran it. So I thought I'm going to find this problem somewhere else. Yeah. So I just thought I'm going to have to go freelance. And so I made the jump, rented a chair. And that was not the best experience. But I learned a lot about pricing. And again, a lot about how to rent a chair out properly from that person. So learning from other people's mistakes. But that was what pushed me to go freelance. So I always say I was pushed rather than I actually made that conscious decision to be like, hey, this would be a great idea. Sure. I'm trying to kind of cast my mind back 10, 11 years and what was going on in the industry and what was going on with Regis as well, because it was kind of the last gasp as far as the UK was concerned in lots of ways, wasn't it? Yeah. But what an amazing opportunity to see inside a business without actually taking on all that risk. I mean, it's a brilliant education for you. So you've mentioned a couple of times where people have been getting pricing wrong with the discounting that was going on in Regis. And you said you got it wrong when you first started renting a chair. So let's make it a bit less personal, less of an attack on you. What do you see people getting wrong as far as pricing is concerned? I actually think everyone does the same thing I did, which is I'm going self-employed and straight away your mind and body go into this place where I'm not guaranteed a wage. No matter how small it would have been, I'm not guaranteed a wage. So I need to make sure I'm busy. And that is it that we don't think about anything else. So what we do is, especially if we're leaving a salon, we will go, right, well, I'll charge a little bit less or I'll charge the same and then offer a big discount to make sure people are like, oh, I'll come. And then we get really busy, we get really booked out. And the biggest problem with that, although in a lot of ways, that's kind, it's almost the correct thing to do. The problem is we just think about being booked up and busy and making sure there's turnover in the business rather than actually thinking, right, I'm going to go freelance. So I need to work out what I need to earn, what my costings are, and then make a price up that includes profit. And then what I should do is offer an introductory price for eight weeks or for your first visit, and then something else to keep them coming back for the second visit.

And I always say on the third visit, something that's just a little thank you, not a discount, not an incentive, just a thank you, or pop them onto a referral system so they can get one more bite of the apple, if you will, for a slightly lower price, but they're bringing a friend. So we don't think about strategies when it comes to pricing. We just think, I need people and cash flow. Yeah. And that's what I think actually leads to burnout later down the line, because we never ever think the problems with our pricing, because we're like, well, I'm busy, so it can't be the pricing. I'm just really busy, you know? I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think it's that kind of fear-based pricing, and I hold my hands up, that's exactly what we did. So I used to work for Tony and Guy, and we opened a salon and went, well, we can't charge what Tony and Guy charge because they're Tony and Guy. And so we knocked a few quid off and opened up the salon doors and thought we were going great guns because we were really busy. Well, of course we were, because people were getting that quality experience for a discount. You know, completely forgetting that they had a different cost structure to us and, you know, we weren't even paying VAT and all these other things that are going on, but we're so busy comparing. You know, I would say that the salon owners stand outside and they look at one end of the street at a very glossy salon and say, well, we can't charge that much. And then they look at Sweaty Betty who never cleans her windows at the other end of the street and pick a number in between. And that's about as much thought that goes into pricing at the beginning. And I think, and I know, actually, when it came to opening my salon, pricing was one of the last things we even thought about as far as strategy was concerned. You know, everything else was in place. We signed the lease and got the decorators in and everything and then went, oh, what are we going to charge then? It's like an afterthought. Okay. So I love the idea of kind of taking people on a pricing journey at the beginning of their experience with you. And is that something that you do in your salon now or is that just when you're first starting out? Does it apply to all new clients that come into the business? How does that work? Well, see, I've got myself into a really good position whereby, so when I rented a chair, like I say, I made the same mistake as everyone else. And this is why I say, don't make that mistake.

And this is how I came up with this strategy to take people on a journey. Because I always think if you go to a restaurant or you try a new restaurant that's quite expensive, sometimes you think, oh, I don't know. And then if we get a voucher through, we think, oh, I'll give it a go. And then we give it a go and we love it and we keep going back, right? So the one thing we don't want to do when we offer someone an incentive to try us out is for them to try us and then never try us again because they're just a coupon queen. And that's why I pick that bit of, like, the restauranteur strategy and then pop it into something that is more applicable to the hair and beauty industry. Because, you know, I always think people will try you once and they might try you again if they were like, yeah, it was OK, maybe I'll give it another go. And then on that second go, they'll decide. So they'll either come back a third time. And that's why I say on the third time, give them a free treatment or something like that, because that's like a thank you for choosing me rather than incentivizing that. So I always make sure that's why I take on that journey, that strategy. For me, what I did, and it was quite a bold move, was after doing three months renting a chair, I decided to open my own studio because the lady that was renting me the chair was like, you can't work late, you can't have a key, you have to take holidays when I take holidays. And I was like, that's not going to work. So very early on, I thought I need to go and get somewhere. And luckily enough, I walked around the local high street, found somewhere that I thought, I can do that. And we made it happen. And I thought, I've got a chance here. I've got two opportunities. So I ran this silly 20% off for, I actually found the price list last night. It was for pensioners, for students. They got 20% off like Lifetime. Pensioners, students, blue light discount before it was even a thing, which I'm like, do not do any of those now. Because for three months, I was super busy. And towards the end of the three months, it just fell off a cliff. And so that's when you realize a lot of people are coming to see you just because they've got the offer. Yeah. So when I opened the studio, I thought, and I didn't really understand the psychology of the time, but I thought, you know what? There's people out there that will pay 10 grand for a handbag. Now, I don't begrudge that. However, when the way I see the world is that 10 grand handbag, what's the difference between that one, a 5,000 pound one or a 200 pound or saints one?

And the answer is not a lot. The answer is the branding. And the answer is they've asked for it, right? And so people will talk about supply and demand, and I get that. However, I always say Chanel didn't start off at Primark prices and build loads of demand and then eventually get to 10 grand. They just set up shop and when this is what it costs, that is the cost to entry to buy our bags. And they built demand up from that. And so, and the way I did this when I opened the salon was I went in just super high, but again, I didn't work the prices out. And I thought we knew we were doing something different. So again, 10 years ago, this is when salons are still white, very clean, very pristine, uniformed. I turned up on the high street, there was plants, there was stones, there was wood, very earthy things in there. I wanted it to feel like the outside but in. And I'm very into like natural skincare and just natural stuff as much as possible. Because I then feel like it allows me to have a bit of Botox. My body can cope with the Botox. I like to think that was my balance. So I just went in really, really high. And I thought there's two things that will happen. Either people will go, why is she so expensive? I need to try her out. And I thought, and if they don't, I can always come down. Yeah. So there was room to move down. And they opened up. I was really expensive. I made sure the prices weren't visible. People had to book a consultation. And I said, everything's done on quotation. And this also was around the time that balayage was still quite new. And people were still sort of getting it very wrong and trying it. And I used to call them like peekaboo highlights. I would like basically highlight under the parting and on the ends so that it didn't look like a back to front balayage. Because when people did a half head, it was just through the layers. And I'd be like, that looks kind of weird. So I think I got a few of those things right. But this is what I generally coach people now. I'm like, you've got two choices. You need to completely rebrand. And yes, you will lose lots of clients. But then you will pick up the clients that are looking for a high price. Because there are clients out there that look for a high price. I look for a high price. Absolutely. So yeah, that's what I did. And that is still an option. And I say that to people that I coach. I'm like, you can do this. However, it is scary. Or the other way to do it is to do that, but then offer a pricing journey to the clients.

I think the way that I phrase it with that higher end service is that ultimately, and it always happens when we get to a round number. So when you're encouraging people to increase their prices, it's like we're going to pass £70 or we're going to pass £80 or £100. And then the owner starts to freak out because we've broken a new boundary. And I always say that there's people out there that don't think you can get a decent haircut for less than £100. So every time you price someone out of the market, you also price somebody new into the market. But it is an exercise in bravery, very definitely. And my personal belief is that I think there's a polarisation in salons that's been happening for about the last 10 years, and it's accelerating now. You either need to be top end, brilliant experience, amazing standards, or come in, take a seat. We'll be with you as soon as we can. That middle ground, I think is a very dangerous place to be, but I think it's disappearing as well. I don't think the marketplace wants it anymore. Interesting. So talk to me a little bit about, so are you encouraging then all of your coaching clients to get to that top end? Is that where we're ultimately aiming for? Yeah, so I try and encourage people to go for that. Because what I do say is when you're in business or new to business or just in business, a lot of people aren't booked out solidly all year. I think that's a really big myth. And if you are booked out solidly all year, and you're a single person doing it, you've probably got your pricing wrong. And when people fear losing a client or clients dropping off, like I never fear having a quiet week. Or if I have someone that has to reschedule last minute, I'm never scared. Because of two things. And one is that all the clients I do are priced with profit in them. And I always say to people, profit is there to catch you so that you're not going to panic if you have a quiet week or you have a client can't make. Because sometimes like, I mean, we have policies in place in case someone last minute cancels. But sometimes, you know, if a client phoned me and said, I've had to take my baby to the hospital last night, we're in it.

Yeah. Would I charge them full price? God, no. Like, and I do think there's room, a lot of these rules we have, I'm like, there are grey areas. And I think, empathy. You know, you can be empathic and you can still have boundaries. But I think to be too empathic to the point you're losing money, or these boundaries to be too strict to the point that you have no empathy, it's not balanced. I'm a big believer in balance. And I do coach people to try and be as high-end as possible. Because when you're new to business, or you're having a quiet week, I always say to people, I skip to work. And I actually find it very hard stepping away from behind the chair. Like, I've been super, super busy the past few weeks. And it's so hard to get my content done and to fit people in for coaching. Because when someone wants to book a hair appointment, you know, it's £300 plus. And there's profit in that, you know. So it's hard to say no to that. Skip to work. And when you are at the beginning of your business, and everyone does this, you don't, you're juggling your cash flow. So at the beginning of a business, or if you're rebranding, you will be like, that client's came in, they've paid £300, I've got that bill for £600. You're not really at that point where it'd be lovely to think that when you first start that first week, you're like, oh, I've put 20% aside for that and 10% aside for that and I've paid myself that. And then next week you're dead. Like, what do I do then? Yeah. It doesn't get like that. The first 12 months you're juggling finances. And it's far easier to juggle when you've got high paying clients than when you've got low paying clients. Sure. But I agree with you. I think there are two business models. And I think you either do high volume, which is low price, high volume, or you do low volume, high price. And I would agree to get stuck in the middle. That feels like you're in the trenches. It is. And it's a very crowded place to be, which is another thing that makes it dangerous. Because I think my personal belief is that there are too many salon businesses out there. There isn't enough space for everyone in that middle ground. And I've always known if we're going to go top end or bottom end, I know which end I want to be. Yeah. Because I think competing on price is a miserable place to be. I want the best coffee and reception. And I want the best training for my team. And that costs money. Yeah. So I want to kind of rewind a little bit in just a second and figure out where the transition into coaching and helping other people came along. But before we do, just your personal opinion. So if you're encouraging people to aim for that top end, I'm encouraging people to aim

for that top end. What is it that keeps pulling the prices back down? What is it that keeps making our average bill across the industry pretty stagnant, to be honest, and we're still renowned for being actually quite a poorly paid industry? What's pulling us back? I think there could be a few things. I think one of them is fear. Fear-based pricing. Because people will always stay at that low end. Like I know so many people. I think a lot of people don't understand their pricing. And they don't understand like when we get new products to the market. I talk about this all the time. And this week I've got content planned on it. Because sometimes I do content and I forget that I have to keep doing that content actually. Because one or two pieces isn't enough. And when I've set my prices, a lot of people only do a price increase once, maybe twice a year. And they'll normally do it when the accountant tells them they haven't made any money. Right? Which is too, too late. And where that can come from is they've bought into a new product company and not realized that actually a 10 or 20 pound increase in bleach on a bag actually really impacts their profit margins. And they may not price increase enough for it. I think one of the places that's keeping the prices stagnant is definitely that middle of the road where people are battling on price. Because when you're battling on price, you are, because that's your mindset. I have to compete on price. So you end up sat there and then you are more likely to offer emotional discounts at the till. So if a client's coming to see you and that's where you're competing on and you've had to do a toner or you thought they do need a treatment and you've not charged for it because you're thinking, well, I think they need it and I haven't told them, that's keeping the price down. And then I will say something controversial because why not? But I think over the history, the history of our industry before we had so many freelancers. And this is why I think, and this is definitely where I got my pricing wrong. And I always say this, when you've got a salon, you've got 10 people like the salon that I was in with Regis. You've got five people in there and the rent there was a thousand pound a month. Now you can split the overheads between five or 10 people or streams of income, I like to call them.

And so their prices can't afford to stay lower. And this is why as a freelancer going solo, it's completely wrong to take that price and chop it and discount it because you're the only one paying the bills. And so I think when we've had salons typically where if they have or haven't done the maths, but even if they have, they could afford to offer lower pricing and tiered pricing. Because, I mean, just the rent alone is split between 10 or, it used to be 10 or 20 stylists. So that does keep the prices lower. And I think this is probably where we're at with the public and the industry where the public sort of, you know, I don't think it's all the public. I think it tends to be the mob that are on TikTok. I see them quite a lot where they will say that price is ridiculous and this is ridiculous and that's ridiculous. And it's because we've been so used to predominantly it was salons and big salons on the high street that were able to offer lower prices for people. So I think that's what's still keeping that stagnant coupled with people going freelance because we've got a lot of people that are going freelance that are based around that fear pricing. I've got to get people in and we all just inherently know that people love a bargain and so we price low for it. But we don't think about how we're going to go from there to there. We just think if I stay here, people will come and that's all we think about. Yeah, yeah, I think you're dead right. And I think the particularly the social media reaction to higher prices, I just think that person was never your client. That person was never going to be your client in the first place. And I also think it's and it actually does happen in salons as well when they're dealing with their actual clients. I see people changing strategy and pricing strategy, marketing strategy, service strategy, even off the feedback of one person. Yeah. And you think, God, you've got, you know, five hundred, a thousand people on your books. And one person says, oh, it'd be great if you opened at five in the morning because I could go before I go to the gym. And suddenly we're trying to figure out a new rotor and can we get to work on time? And what does that mean for parking just off one person's feedback? And I think that happens a lot with social media because that one person seems so noisy, particularly if they get a few likes and responses to their comment, too.

Very interesting. I love the I love the whole pricing debate and where we're pulling ourselves back. I think the fear based thing, I think, is kind of the key to all this. And I think for me, it's also encouraging people to just look at that slightly longer term view in terms of, yes, it might be a quiet week. And then the heart starts going, oh, my God, I need to run an offer. I need to be on Facebook offering discounts and all the rest of it. When actually, if you see that in the context of your month or your quarter and what the goals were that you set out from there, it's just a blip. Yeah. And then the final thing that I think people fail to price in, sorry to take over, but it's my show. Don't. I think the other thing that people fail to price in is any time to actually work on the business. So they're pricing as if they're literally working behind the chair all the time. And then they're getting frustrated when they're double screening at home and they're working from the laptop while they're trying to be present with the kids. You've got to price in some time to actually do your marketing, do your admin, do your finances. So let's rewind the clock a little bit then. So 10, 11 years ago, you decided to freelance. And at some stage then you started helping other freelancers. Yeah. What was that trigger? God, that was lockdown. So when lockdown hit, I mean, I love my job. I absolutely love doing people's hair. I predominantly now just do blonding. And, you know, my clients always ask me like with the app, they're like, oh, you'll quit one day. And I'm like, I honestly don't think I ever would because I just, I get paid well. I love it. Why would I? So when lockdown hit, I'm like, I would say I'm a very positive person. I always try to see the good and learn the lesson and very grateful person. I always see the positives and stuff. And when lockdown hit, I was like, I'm not closing my shop. I'm Gary, I'm working. And then Boris was like, no, you have to short. For about a week, I was floored. I was, oh my God, what do I do? This is my life. This is all I've known. And so after a week, I just thought, oh, I'll just get on Instagram and start. Because I was really curious about why did other people go freelance? And I started seeing that more and more people were going freelance.

And there was more and more freelancers that were becoming independent educators. And they were really like just to see some of these people like their growth and the way they'd, you know, really grabbed freelancing almost like the bull by the horns and just run with it and made some amazing businesses from it. And I was like, this is incredible. So I started doing like three lives a week. And one of them was money and pricing because so many people I think are just innately new, like people just weren't getting it right. And that came from, because a lot of people in my town, it's a very small town, like tiny, and we had like 14 salons at the time. And I got a lot of flack for my prices and a lot of people phoning up and, you know, having not so many nice things to say about me, which I found wild. Because I just thought surely if I price high, they'll be like, oh, the bar, like we can raise our prices, but it wasn't like that. So I then just thought, people mustn't be figuring stuff out. Because I would walk around town and be like, they can't charge that. Like, I know they're not making money because I know what the rents are on a lot of these shops. Like, I know a lot of the business owners. So then I started talking, I think Mondays we used to do Money Mondays. And then Wednesday, we would do Mindset, because I think one thing I would definitely say, if you said, name one of your standout qualities, it's mental resilience. Like, I'm definitely a resilient person. Not that I don't have mental breakdowns, but I have them and crack on. So we'd talk about Mindset, because I remember thinking for me, lockdown that first week, I had to get myself out of that. And I thought there'd be other people again, struggling. And then Fridays, every other Friday, we'd have a freelancer on. And then we'd do Q&As. And the first live I ever did, because people say to me, where do you get the confidence to turn up online? And I'm like, the first live, I, if anyone wants to scroll all the way back and watch it, I rambled on for an hour, I was sweating profusely, and I had a bottle of wine. So I was like, but, and again, when we talk about courage, it's, you've just got to do the hard thing. And so that's where all that started. Then we opened back up, and of course, I was like everyone else inundated. And then the second lockdown we had, this is where the beginning of coaching and the app came in. The second lockdown we had, I decided to loan a horse. I grew up in the country, so I grew up just messing around with animals. So I thought I'll loan a horse because I've got a reason to go out every day.

But I thought, I don't want to eat into my savings. And I'd actually listened to a book on podcast on the first lockdown, and it was Rich Dad Poor Dad. If anyone hasn't read it, it's a very good read. And he was talking about when you want something, you don't say you can't afford it. You say, how am I going to afford it? And what he talks about is, you need to find a way to generate revenue to pay for that thing. And so, right, I need to find a way to make £35 a week to pay for this horse. So I thought, I'll put an e-guide together on how to do your pricing. And I thought, I can't just do just like two pages. So I actually made the first version of the e-guide, and it was a step-by-step on how to work out your prices, how to set up your business, like literally screenshots of HMRC, how to build your client base, and then a bit about consultations, all the rest of it. And sold that, I think for about £8.99 as a download. And that was how I paid for the horse. And then from that, I remember just looking at my own calculations and the step-by-step guide one day. And that was when I just thought, there's got to be an app for that. Because that's a lot, even though it's kind of simplified, the math is still just annoying. It's laborious. And this is why people only do it once a year. Yeah. I don't like admin. I don't want to sit down for hours. And so that was where the idea for the app was born. And that was where we started doing the research and design and everything else. So yeah, so it was lockdown. And then from there, after starting to build the app, and then talking more on social media, people were asking about coaching, so I started doing one-to-one. And then I've just recently, we're halfway through a 12-week group coaching course, where I take everyone through the very beginning. Because sometimes I think we forget, we get so involved in our business, it's really good to go back and think, why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? Yeah. You know, has my client, my ideal client changed? Because in the beginning, I was predominantly doing big color corrections and a lot of vivids. My favorite's always been Blondin. And like I say now, I've really skinnied that down. And that's pretty much what I do to the point where, if someone wants a vivid, I just don't take it on because I don't need to. Yeah. So that's where that all started, yeah. I think the joy of having an app is you get to play some games with the pricing.

And I think if you're doing everything manually, even though it's not difficult maths, it's time consuming. And then I like the idea that you can go, well, what if we did this? And what if we managed to eliminate that cost? And you get to play those games with the business. And I think they're vital for longer term success. So go on then. One more plug. Tell us about the app. Where do people find it? Yeah. So the app's called the Freelance Suite. And you can find it in the Google Play Store or you can find it in the Apple App Store. So you can just search the Freelance Suite. You can get a week free and you just type in the code week free. And as you just said, like one of the things I love about this app is it's so easy. Like once you've put your work structure and your desired wage in there, you add your products in and you don't have to add every single color. So if, cause I'm a bit of a, I'm a bit of a product slut. I use, I like to use a bit of everything and try new things. And that's what's great about the app. You can try these new things and actually price them into your prices. So in my library, I have, uh, Redken, um, ShadeZQ, and you just put one of those in the price and how much it costs. And that's it. The amazing thing about this is once you've built out your service list. So let's say on my, my iconic blonde, which is like the full foiliage works, we call it an iconic blonde. Um, let's say I don't want to use Redken flashlist anymore. I want to use O and M. I can delete the flash lift, put O and M in, and it just updates the price. Let's say ShadeZQ has gone up in price. I just go into my product library, alter the price and it alters all the price of all the services that has that thing in. So you never, ever, ever have to actually work out your prices again. And that's what makes it so easy. It's so easy. And I also like doing what you've just said where I go, well, what if as well, I'll build out an iconic blonde with maybe all O and M and then one with all Redken and one with all Weller. And you can see the price difference. And sometimes it's a difference. I actually did it last night. I was talking to a friend about this and the difference between, I'll not name the brands, but there was a 20 pound difference just changing the Lightner. Wow. And I was thinking, I wonder if people know that because that's either if you're not charging it to the client, then you're losing it. And the other thing that prompted me to make this app was, and any hair colorist or hair

stylist will know this, day in, day out, you're way in color. You're using foil. And we all know there's some clients that were using more Lightner and the chances are if you're using more Lightner, you're using more toner, you're just using overall more product. And we kind of don't, cause I used to do that and just think they probably need to pay more, but I don't know how much because you can't do all the mass there and then. And that's the other thing with this app. So whenever I always say to people, my prices are priced for the average that I normally go through. And I always say to clients, if they've got long or thick hair or they want a super blonde result, I will say to them, listen, it may cost you more in product. And because I know how much total product we normally use, it's normally around £50. I'll say to them, the extra product could be an extra £30. It won't be more than that. It could be less. And they're so happy with that. And I just think, why should I be paying for someone to wear their hair? Absolutely. And we, so we've always had a long thick hair supplement available for cutting and colouring services in the salon. And I met some resistance from my team members about it. And in fact, we had to, because I'm a horrible cow, we had to make it a disciplinary that if you took more time and didn't charge the supplement, that was a verbal warning. And my argument to them was always, it's not a surprise to these people that they've got long thick hair. They've had long thick hair for years and years and years. They know it's there. It's not like you're breaking the news for the first time that their hair is particularly long. And I think as long as people have an idea, like you said, an idea upfront of what that's going to cost. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. No. Wonderful. So what's the best way for people to keep in touch with you, Ruth? Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram and TikTok, and it is at Ruth underscore underscore Lund. And you'll find the links to everything there. But yes, I am most active on those two platforms. Superb. And we will make sure that Ruth's links are put into the description. Underneath this episode, final quick fire round that we ask. I'm going to have to change these because people now know what the questions are that are coming up. What's the best thing about working in the salon industry? The best thing without a shadow of a doubt about working in the salon industry is working with people and leaving them better than how they came in. For me, that will just always set my heart on fire. Like always. Yeah. So you like the transformation. Love it. I just love making people feel good about themselves and picking them up. Yeah. And what I like in salons is that it happens so quickly as well.

Because I've just started going back into the salon after an absence of 10 plus years. I hadn't been into the salon. And I've started doing the hair systems for men. And it's just, you know, for me to get a transformation in coaching can take weeks, sometimes months for us to get there. Yeah, yeah. Months. Whereas the hair systems, it's kind of three hours later. They're a different person. Yeah. It just feels so good. Second question. What's the best piece of advice that you've ever received? Ooh, that is a tough one. I don't, do you know, I don't know what the best piece of advice I've ever received is. But if I was going to give people just a little bit of advice that will apply to business and life is lead with integrity, be honest with people and build solid relationships. I'm a big believer in that what's done in the dark will always come to the light. So lead with integrity. And yeah, for the people out there that think being a good person doesn't get you anywhere, you might get there slightly slower, but you will get there and you will last. Yeah. I love that. And final one is actually asking for a bit of advice, but we're talking to someone who's way at the very beginning of their salon career. What advice would you give them? Do all the education possible and really, really focusing on your customer service because before, and I see this a lot, before you've got those mega skills, people will always come back to you and they will let you off if your customer service is on point. And all that is, is just making sure you go above and beyond for them and you will build an amazing loyal client base because it's a rare thing. Wonderful. Thank you so much for that, Ruth. It's been wonderful chatting with you. Will you come and see us again on the Build Your Salon podcast in the future? Absolutely. It's been a joy being on here. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Superb. So there we have it. My chat with Ruth around the psychology of pricing and lots of other stuff in between. What are your thoughts? Reach out. Let me know. Also reach out if you would like to feature as a guest on a future episode of the Build Your Salon podcast. Phil at buildyoursalon.com. You know I love hearing from my salon owner friends anyway.

Just seven short days until I'm coming in your eyes and ears again with another dose of wise old owl wisdom. And until then, take care. Sit down and see what's going on with the queen of salons. Hair, beauty and more successful tips for business owners. All on Build Your Salon.