Diversity, Equity and Inclusion with beauty guru Sam Marshall

Hello, my salon friends. Phil Jackson, your queen of salons here, coming in your eyes and ears with a dose of wise old owl wisdom, but not my wisdom this week. We have a special guest. Diversity, equality, and inclusivity are not just buzzwords, and they can be very contentious issues. Here to help me pick our way through the minefield is beauty guru, Sam Marshall. Let's get her on the show, shall we? Hello, Sam, and welcome to the Build Your Salon podcast. Thank you. I've been dying to come on this for so long. Thanks for having me. Well, we've been desperate to get you on, but we had to time it right for the launch of your new training programme, which we're going to hear about a little bit later. But for those people who don't know you, who must have been hiding under a stone, ignoring the amazing work that you do in the industry, why don't we tell people a little bit about yourself? So who are you and where did you come from? Well, I'm actually from Bakewell in Derbyshire. Bakewell tart jokes, go for it. It's actually a pudding as well. It's a Bakewell pudding. And I rebelled against my parents at 16. They wanted me to carry on my private education and I actually got bullied. So I didn't want to stay there. So I enrolled myself at beauty college. I need to annoy them. But actually, it was a real passion of mine. So I did a BTEC national diploma and I've been a beauty therapist ever since. I've done so many different areas of beauty. I've worked in a spa. I've worked on cosmetic counters, which is a very gruelling job. I've managed a really big salon in Harvey Nichols in Manchester, and I'm now an educator as well. I teach waxing courses, which is my specialist. I run a Facebook group called Skin Professionals UK because I'm really nerdy about skin. So exciting. And then I've just kind of started branching more into diversity, equity and inclusion, as you've mentioned before. And that's become something that is a real passion of mine. So that's kind of I spin a lot of plates. You certainly do. You certainly do. I think what resonated with me in that section, though, is that you were bullied at school and then kind of found that safe space in the salon industry. And that's a really true reflection of where I came from was very brutally bullied for the whole of my secondary career. And then it was only really when I found salons that I felt welcomed and accepted as particularly as a gay man.

So I think the industry historically has had that very welcoming kind of feel to it. But correct me if I'm wrong, I feel that we're losing that edge a little bit. I feel that maybe we've got some work to do in our industry if we're going to keep it as that welcoming open space. Would you agree with that? Yeah. And I think as well, obviously, your your hair and I'm Beauty and they're very different industries. The hair industry, I think, is is hugely diverse and everyone can just be themselves. And you kind of expect a hairdresser to maybe be a little bit extrovert or flamboyant. But in beauty, I feel like we've all been like cookie cutters of each other. And that's where we don't have the chance for people that might want to come into our industry to get into it. I think it's improving, but it's not quite there yet. OK, so where is there work to do specifically, do you feel? Well, standards is huge about that a lot. And luckily, I managed to sit on some advisory groups around that because I really want to make my industry the best it can be. But other areas, I think, are welcoming different people from different backgrounds into our industry and enabling them to work within the industry. And I recently touched base with someone who has a Facebook group called Nailing Disabilities, and she actually supports other nail technicians and therapists that have disabilities, whether they be physical or mental. And I thought, gosh, we really do have a need for this, don't we? Because could someone come into our industry and work that isn't able bodied? Could someone come into our industry and work that maybe is a bit different? And that's where we've got the work to do, I think. OK, and I see it myself as a bit of a game of two halves. I think there's the kind of the DEI as an employer, as a team, as a working environment. And then there's the more outward facing, client facing DEI aspect of things. And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I kind of feel that the employment side of things, it feels like we're doing a little bit better than perhaps we are on the client facing side of things. Would that be accurate? Oh, it depends where we're talking.

So if we take, I work predominantly with the trans community, raising awareness around that. And I think if we give a spa as an example, and I'm not saying every spa is like this, but could a trans therapist or a non-binary therapist come and work in a spa in the UK and be supported and feel comfortable and feel welcome and feel like they belong? Probably not. Could a client who's trans come into a spa? Some of them, yes. A lot of them, no. So I think it depends on, say, doing nails is one thing. Things like spa where it's kind of more formal are slightly different. So I think it depends hugely on the environment. But I think we have work to do on all angles because a lot of my friends still have, that are trans, my friends that are trans still have negative experiences when they go for, say, laser hair removal and things like that. So is it an environmental thing or is it the nature of certain services? So, for example, you already alluded to hair being different to beauty. Hair by its very nature, although it's physical, is not as intimate as something as perhaps laser hair removal or waxing might be. Yeah, possibly. I think I think beauty and hair just just very, very different in the people that come into it. I think there's just a bit of a difference in that. But, yeah, if someone is taking their clothes off, then there are kind of different barriers. Let's just say that might be in place to stop that being comfortable. And occasionally I hear people say that they are on board, at least making the right noises, but that they feel that perhaps the pace of change as far as acceptance and DEI is concerned is a bit much for them. What do you think is kind of leading that change? It does feel, for example, if you compare it to equal rights for women or perhaps even, you know, gay pride and acceptance of lesbians and gays and bisexuals in the workplace is concerned. This does feel a lot more rapid. What do you think is driving that? Well, driving it to... Just driving the speed of change that we're seeing at the moment. I think it needs to happen. I mean, I was very fortunate growing up as a lesbian. I didn't have a lot of problems. I was actually bullied in the salon I managed by a gay man, but that's a different story for a different day. But I didn't have so many challenges. But when I look at my trans friends and trans clients, the challenges they face are way worse than even what I've heard a lot of my gay friends mention.

And what kind of shape... I don't want to upset people or trigger anybody, but what kind of shape do those challenges take for people? Oh, getting misgendered. So a trans person will dynamically risk assess your business before they come into it. They will wonder if they will feel safe, if they're going to get misgendered, if they're going to get respected, if they're going to get asked inappropriate questions. A friend of mine on her first haircut after transitioning, she was sat in the chair and the stylist just fired questions at her that she shouldn't have been asked. Like what her dead name was, which is the name she was given of birth or what, if she was going to have the art, because people seem obsessed with, we have one of bits and the bobs when they don't really need to see them. Yeah. And it was all these different questions that really, if that stylist had been trained around the awareness with it, then they wouldn't have asked those questions. So it kind of stops people going for these appointments. And actually, they really want to use services. When I've asked, I've asked all my friends that have been for laser hair removal, and not one of them have said that they've been to anywhere where they haven't been misgendered. And they're generally going to the bigger branded places across the youth. And that, and that's really sad that we, that those businesses are going, hey, we do transgender laser hair removal, you know, I've seen posters in their windows and the trans flag. But yet they don't have the training to back that up when those people come in. And that's not okay. So where, where should that training happen? Where should it come from? I mean, I would love to see it in college courses. But I do find if we, if we're talking about younger learners, they don't need as much training around it, because it's kind of normal for them. And that is, but for those of us that I'm in my 40s, and it was a new thing when I 10 years ago, I got introduced to the fact that, that people might not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. And I was like, okay, I need to get my head around this. I would love to see it at college. But what I have a lot is people coming into my inbox going, hey, I've got a trans client, I need to do your training. And what really should happen is they should already be trained in it because we don't, I'll use hair as another example.

We don't wait for someone with type four hair to come in our business. Now type four hair is taught in college courses is part of the curriculum. For me with black skin, you know, it, it should be covered in your college course. So I think all those differences need to happen at the learning level. But for those of us that learned 20 years ago, 30 years ago, we need to catch up. So that's where the training comes in. And that's why I developed the course because there is a massive need for it. And I would love in 10 years time to look back and go, God, did I have to teach people that? Is there, is there a difference between what we have to do legally and what you feel we should be doing as an industry and potentially as a trailblazing industry? Let's face it, we've got, we've got the potential here to really lead the economy as far as these issues are concerned. Is there a difference between what we should be doing and what we have to do? Yeah, absolutely. So the law says that we have, we're not allowed to discriminate against, victimise, bully or harass. Well, anyone in theory, but there's nine protected characteristics. And the one that, that, that, that trans means is actually, it's called gender reassignment, which is terrible language, but I teach about that in my course. And so it's, it's a protected characteristic as races, as sex or gender is as marriage or civil partnership. So if you're discriminating against someone because of that protected characteristic, then that is illegal and that does go against the law. But why would we do the bare minimum when, well, I mean, gosh, if we were victimising, harassing or bullying someone because of their gender identity, that would be horrendous. But we should want to welcome, try not to use the word should, I would like to think everyone in our industry wants to give the best service we can. And we can do little small changes in our business to make sure that people from that community, which are facing horrendous challenges at the moment, and they probably will do for the next few years, then why wouldn't we do those things? I think, I think, on a personal note, and I know we've had a conversation about this before, I think a lot of the time, there's resistance, because people feel that discrimination, particularly in the UK, is, is, it's on the same sort of level as rudeness.

It's just impolite to discriminate. And I don't think many people appreciate just how vicious discrimination can be when you're on the receiving end of it. And I think if people knew what people had to go through, I think they would be a lot more willing to carve out some safe spaces in those people's worlds. Yeah. So you very briefly touched on it. Is there a business benefit for getting to grips with it? If we were just talking cold, hard cash, you know, we don't necessarily want to do the right thing, but we want to make good money. Is there a business benefit for creating those safe spaces? So there's loads, there's loads of business benefits to incorporating the whole of diversity, equity and inclusion. And first of all, you're going to get more people using your business, because at the moment, if you're not creating that safe space, and people will look through your website, there's certain little things that they'll look for before they come to you, they're not going to use you anyway. So imagine having a whole section of society, not wanting to use your business because they don't feel comfortable. So we can get them in. Then also, there's something within the community that which I only heard about recently called the whisper effect. And what happens is that I know you love that, don't you? The trans community, they talk to each other. And if they have bad service somewhere, they tell everybody. And if they have a safe space, they tell everybody. I get so many trans women coming to me now for their first ever eyebrow shape. So many. And it's because on the forum somewhere, someone has shared that I'm quite good at eyebrows. And I and I know the right things to say, and I make that person feel welcome and safe. So absolutely. Okay, let's let's assume then that we've convinced people, let's say that people want to start making the first steps into creating a safe space into somewhere where they take DEI seriously. What simple things could people start looking at straight away? I would first of all, look if you can make your service list gender free, or gender neutral, we can use any of those things. Give me a couple of examples of that. Oh, so in hair. And my partner actually got refused a haircut the other day to barbers in London. And because they said we don't cut women's hair. So hair is hair, it grows out of a head, it doesn't really the texture doesn't change if you're assigned male or female at birth.

So having one price list and just charging by the style because the length is really super easy. There's a great person to follow in the US, they're called dress code project. And there's also hair has no gender in the US as well as Jamie and the other person is called Kristen. And they're incredible people great to follow, they have loads of hints and tips. So that's one thing. And then making your facilities gender neutral. I mean, we all usually have one washroom bathroom toilet, whatever we're calling it wherever we're from in our business. Just, you know, put a little symbol on it saying this welcomes all genders. And if you have two toilets, make them both gender neutral, just make sure you put a sanitary bin in both of them because trans men have their cycles still as well at the beginning of their journey. And then and then the language you use as well. So I, I'm an admin on a couple of Facebook groups and I have my own and if someone puts high ladies, it actually makes me squirm. Because how bad to assume that our whole industry and beauty is just women. And also, you know, I mean, some of my mates who are guys are incredible beauty therapists. But also we've got non-binary folk as well. So we're not going to put ladies and gents. We're just going to put hi, everybody. Hey, can anyone help me? I try and stop using the word guys. But again, that's probably a conversation for another day because that's got a whole thing behind it. Would you want me to go into it or not? I think, yeah, by all means you can. I have to say I am guilty of the guys. But I use it in groups where I know there aren't any men or people who identify as men and there's no cis men in there either. It can be a group of people who all identify as female. And I still say, hey, guys. So it's a bad habit. But go on, go into that for a sec for us. So the default for us to go is usually male, isn't it? So we've got mankind. We've got all different words that have always historically defaulted to male. So when we say guys, we usually say a mixed group of people. But imagine if in that mixed group of people there was a trans woman. Because trust me, she does not want to be called guys at all. And then also, if you, if people go, oh, yeah, but I use it for mixed groups. So say to a cis straight man, how many guys have you slept with? And they'll be like, oh, oh, none. Or if we put guys on toilet doors, will everyone think they can go in there? So I think it's a word that eventually will go.

So I quite like folks. It's used a lot in the States. It's kind of everybody or humans or people. And when I went to the Philippines recently, I kind of, they were all like very noisy. And I was like, people just shouted at them. And they loved it. They love being called people, which I thought was quite cute. I'm like, people listen. So I think guys eventually will go. But it's, it's default. It is, it's a male word. And let's find a gender neutral one. There's millions of words out there to choose from. Let's pick a different one. I'm not saying it's the end of the world if we still use it. Yeah. And I think that it's an important point to make is that we're not necessarily expecting people to get everything right from day one. What we want to see is that people are just trying to do the right thing, I think. Yeah. Just give it a whirl. Like we're going to get things wrong. And the language will always evolve. So someone will listen to this podcast in five years and go, yeah, don't agree with half of that. And that's okay. It's okay that things change and evolve. But we, we, we find safety in what we know. And that's okay to feel safe. It's important to feel safe. But I think we have to just open our minds up to the fact that things do evolve and change. They do. And they should. So tell us about the training that you've put together. Yeah. So I've been running my trans awareness training since lockdown. I kind of, we did everything in lockdown, didn't we? We were like, I'm thinking of something new. And a lot of my friends, so I have a lot, I'm cisgender. And I'm probably the only cisgender person in the UK that I know of that teaches trans awareness. And I had a bit of a kind of argument with myself over that. And I get a lot of imposter syndrome. But all my, I've got a lot of friends from the trans community. And they said, if I stopped, they'd fall out with me. So they actually really want me to be their voice. And someone, someone said a while ago, you know, they don't want you to speak for them. Well, actually, the trans community really do. Maybe not a different protective characteristics, but the trans community really like me doing this. And I get a lot of love for them for it. And I think sometimes it's easier when I'm in a face-to-face training session, teaching cis people as a cis person. You can relate to it. Like, it's quite powerful if a man stands up for women's rights or a white person stands up for black rights. So it's kind of along those lines. So I ran it as a live session. But I could only commit to once a month. Not everyone could come. And I thought, right, I'm going to put it online.

So I've uploaded it and more. It's a monster of a course, but a fantastic one. So it's on an online platform. I've voice recorded every single slide. So for those of you out there who might be a little bit neuro-spicy like me and can't just read something, you can just listen to it. It's got a survey, a quiz. It's happier endorsed so you get a certificate at the end. And then what I'm doing to kind of overcome the fact it's not live is once a month I'm hosting a Zoom that anyone could come on as many times as they like. And some of my friends from the trans community, and I do insist on paying them. This is a really important point to make. They don't just come. I force them or I give them free treatments if they refuse to take the money. So they will come on and answer questions from a lived experience point of view, because that is really important to hear their voices. For sure. Yeah. And I guess those lives are going to make sure that it's always up to date and it's always relevant to what's going on in the world right now. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's great to ask any topical questions about anything that you might read in the press. Sam, you're superb and I could talk to you all day, every day. You know that. How do people find out more about you and your training? So if you are on Instagram, the easiest way actually is to follow me on my general Instagram that I use, which is Skin Guru Sam, because I can't manage 10 different Instagrams at once. And then on Facebook, it's Sam Marshall Education. Fantastic. And we'll put all of those links into the show notes as well. Thank you so much for your time today. There is so much more that we could be covering, but I was really keen that people just get a little taste of how the industry could be shifting and could be improving in a really, really important direction. So thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you. So there we have it. My interview with Sam Marshall. Come on, guys. You know that we could be doing an amazing job with DEI. And your Uncle Phil is here on bended knee begging you to get to grips with this fantastically important issue. Just seven short days until I'm coming in your eyes and ears again. If you would like to guest on the Build Your Salon podcast or you know somebody who will be amazing, my email address is phil at buildyoursalon.com. And until the next time, take care. Sit down and see what's going on with the queen of salons.

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